E307 - Dr. Moya Hill, CEO and Founder, Dr. Moya Hill Solutions
[00:00] Debbie Reynolds: The personal views expressed by our podcast guests are their own and are not legal advice or official statements by their organizations.
[00:12] Hello, this is Debbie Reynolds. They call me the Data Diva. This is the Data Diva Talks Privacy podcast where we discuss data privacy issues with industry leaders around the world with information that businesses need to know.
[00:24] Now, I have a very special guest on the show,
[00:28] Dr. Moya Hill. She is the CEO and founder of Dr. Moir Hill Solutions.
[00:34] Dr. Moya Hill: Welcome, welcome. Thank you for having me.
[00:38] Debbie Reynolds: I'm excited to have you on the show today. You and I actually had a call before and we hit it off really well and I thought your point of view and your perspective are so unique and I would love to have our listeners on this show to be able to hear from you.
[00:54] So you focus on AI governance, AI.
[00:58] And I love your backstory and how you got into,
[01:02] you know, your profession and the things that you do and how you talk about artificial intelligence and governance. But give me your background.
[01:10] Dr. Moya Hill: Yes. So I work in the federal government for about 10 years,
[01:16] and during that time I work as a FOIA officer. Many people don't know what FOIA is, but FOIA gives access to government information, right?
[01:24] So I work as a FOIA officer, a records officer, and a privacy officer as well. So I did all three.
[01:30] And while I'm working there, I realized that all three programs are so similar in their mission, but they don't realize that they're similar in their mission. So I was in charge of government managing and overseeing all three programs.
[01:46] While doing that, I realized that the records officers, their job is to organize and manage the records, right? They know where all the records are. Privacy officers job is to ensure that personal and sensitive records are managed well.
[01:58] And then the FOIA officers are responsible for giving access to these records. So I realized that there was a gap here. And once I bring everybody together, all the teams together, and show them that you guys have one mission and your one mission is information governance.
[02:11] You govern information.
[02:13] I realized that once I put them together, everything flows smoothly. FOIA officers, their backlog decreased. Privacy officers were able to locate their personal records and govern it properly. Records management officers were able to help all the two, two of these teams.
[02:27] So I realized that there's a bigger thing here.
[02:30] And then I started more digging in more research,
[02:33] what else feels govern information. Cyber security is one of them. Risk management is one of them. Even training is one of them. Right? And so that's what lead me to where I am today.
[02:43] Debbie Reynolds: I love that story. Right? So FOIA is Freedom of Information Act. So in the us, Certain people can ask the government for records that the government has. And so there's this whole huge process to be able to get that information.
[03:00] And I think one of the things that really interests me about FOIA in the US is that because now if I'm thinking about FOIA 20 or 30 years ago,
[03:12] they may not have been collecting as much data as they do today, or they don't have as much sensitive information as they do today. So it makes it more complex.
[03:23] Like an example I would give is like voter records.
[03:26] So a lot of information about voters and how they vote and their records and stuff like that.
[03:33] A lot of people are starting,
[03:35] had been starting to see that some of the information that they were collecting, they didn't want to be able to give that information out because it may create a problem for the individual.
[03:44] But tell me just a little bit about that shift. I saw that myself and I just want your thoughts on that.
[03:51] Dr. Moya Hill: So when it come on to. You mean voter records?
[03:54] Debbie Reynolds: Well, just the fact that there's just more data that people don't want out or things that have to be redacted or. Yes, because you're,
[04:02] you're collecting more data than you were previously.
[04:05] Dr. Moya Hill: I'm so happy you said that. The shift I'm seeing in FOIA today is massive growth. I mean, a lot of people are requesting records, especially with AI, people are requesting records more and more and more.
[04:15] And so this is why, one of the reasons why collaboration between all the fields is necessary, because I always say with foia, FOIA is like almost like a gateway to all of this, right?
[04:23] Foia, give access to these records. And if you don't really properly govern these records, the reality is foia, FOIA is being exposed. And not just being exposed, but if you're not governing these records properly, you are exposing the organization to problems.
[04:37] Right? And so this is why I always talk about all these fields needs to be connected, including privacy.
[04:43] These records contain personal information.
[04:46] Right? And so if you're not, if your organization is not at a speed where everybody, all the officers are connected, all the officers are talking with each other, all. I'm sorry, collaborating,
[04:55] you're going to have mishaps. You're going to have mishaps because information moving so fast, everything right now is just happening so fast and so volume is increasing day by day.
[05:04] And so these fields cannot be separate. We cannot afford to have separate lanes moving because information is not separate. Information governance is not separate. Information demands collaboration. Information demands all these fields to work together.
[05:17] If you look at all these fields. Even in privacy, privacy talks about risk management,
[05:22] privacy talks about cybersecurity. Right. Privacy talks about all these things because it's needed. It's not a mishap, it's needed. And so, yeah, collaboration is definitely needed right now.
[05:33] Debbie Reynolds: Yeah. Right.
[05:34] So I think a lot of times when we were thinking about data,
[05:41] to your example, a lot of times this is true still in organizations. A lot of organizations work in silos and they don't understand the,
[05:50] how they cross connect or how they intersect, or some of them are doing double or triple work that other teams are doing because they're not really sharing, not understanding that connectedness and not understanding how they are taking action on the same data.
[06:06] But what are your thoughts?
[06:08] Dr. Moya Hill: Yes, I love that you mentioned that because I talk about that all the time.
[06:11] Duplication of efforts is a big deal. I mean, if organizations don't understand how these teams connect, you're duplicating work, you're losing money. I mean, a lot of organizations care about money.
[06:21] That's the whole thing. And so if you're having these teams work separately, you don't know what your information is. You don't know, you don't have a way to see or oversee what's actually going on.
[06:32] Bring your teams together, bring your Privacy office together, bring your records officers together. If you're in the government, I know FOIA is strictly for government.
[06:39] So if you're in the government, bring your FOIA officers together. If you're not in the government,
[06:43] FOIA is transparency. Right. But outside the government, you do have transparency laws that you have to abide by, like financial transparency laws and so forth. So if you have an individual or a role that deals with that, bring that person together, bring your risk management officers together,
[06:59] bring all, even your training officer, bring them together.
[07:03] You can have an overview of really what's going on within your organization and you're making sure your information is governed by. Because when you do get to a point where you do hire someone to build your AI, if your information is all over the place and chaotic, what do you think your AI is going to do?
[07:18] It's going to expose that.
[07:20] Debbie Reynolds: Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah. So that's, that's actually an interesting thing that I can talk about. Right. So what AI is doing is enabling people to be able to see data in different ways and being able to speed up processes or even have companies doing things that they weren't doing before with data.
[07:37] And, and so one of the issues that I saw many years ago,
[07:43] and this is when companies were trying to do enterprise search, obviously AI is like magnitudes of more complex and actually moving a lot faster than that. But I know a lot of companies were at that time trying to do enterprise search.
[07:58] And what they were trying to do is like, let's throw this engine on top of everything and search everything. And what they found is that a lot of the records underneath the didn't have the proper security.
[08:09] So basically you have everyone searching confidential, private,
[08:12] personal information. It was a disaster. Right. So I think companies like you're saying if there aren't,
[08:19] they don't really understand the data that they have underlying everything. Bringing in AI is going to create more complication, not really depending on the way that you're using it. But what are your thoughts?
[08:31] Dr. Moya Hill: You know, I'm glad you mentioned that, Debbie, because According to research,
[08:34] 80 to 90% of organizations load their AI with unstructured data, unstructured information, unstructured record. That's research. 80 to 90% organizations have mostly neglected information governance and find it to be not important.
[08:48] And that's why I talk about information governance, because you need to govern your information.
[08:53] You need to build a structure. Not just use your officers, but build a structure, one structure that they all can work on. And in the federal government, for example, they have a structure called a file plan that governs records.
[09:05] However, as we know, we can't just govern records, right? AI demands way more than that. So if you have one structure that your privacy officer can work from, your privacy, your information is being protected, your records officer can work from, your FOIA officer can work from, your risk management officer can work from,
[09:20] your cybersecurity officer can work from, even your training officers can work from, or your legal team can work from one structure that governs every single record within your organization. And tied into these, I call them, seven governance disciplines tied into them,
[09:35] you will know for sure that your, the records within your organization, information, even the data is properly governed.
[09:43] Debbie Reynolds: Yeah. Well, I would love to talk about governance. So we hear so much. I don't know, I guess since especially when ChatGPT came out, people got totally excited about just AI being more democratized,
[09:56] we start hearing a lot of people talk about governance, but I feel like sometimes those words for some people,
[10:03] it doesn't fully resonate. So it's like, oh, let's do governance. It's like AI governance. It's like, but you need other governance before you can even govern AI. But let's talk about that and like your principles.
[10:15] Dr. Moya Hill: I love that, I love that you mentioned that because a lot of people get governance or information governance confused or they don't understand it. A lot of them think it's just policy.
[10:23] Like, how does policy can govern AI? They ask me that all the time. Information governance is not just policy. Is it a part of it? Absolutely. It's not everything.
[10:32] Information governance can be a structure that organizations can use to truly govern their information.
[10:37] For example, in records management, I'm giving you one example. Records management can tell you how long you should keep your records and when to dispose of your records. AI needs that.
[10:46] AI right now doesn't know when record is outdated.
[10:50] And when a record is, it doesn't know. And so you're mixing new records with old records. And that's a. That's one of the reasons why it drifts. It does not know.
[10:56] You have to teach AI these principles, right? You have to teach risk, for example, you have to teach AI is this record high risk, low risk. You have to teach AI these things for AI to understand transparency, for example, even with foia, you have to teach AI, okay, what should be disclosed,
[11:11] what should not be disclosed. AI needs governance principles. You can turn those principles into code and make sure that your AI understands them. I talk about this all the time.
[11:20] Turn it into code before you put that information into the model, turn it into code so your AI understands these principles. So whatever comes out of the AI is fully governed.
[11:29] Debbie Reynolds: And I think when you're talking about, I think some companies, a lot of companies, they just feel like, oh, this is just too hard,
[11:36] hard for us to do, hard for us to govern.
[11:39] But really, that's the thing. I tell them if, if you have your governance in place where your data is, you'll be applying AI in the right situations. And that will actually speed your ability to be able to really use those tools.
[11:53] So the companies that haven't done that,
[11:56] they're either failing in their projects or they're not able to adopt artificial intelligence or any emerging technology because they haven't done that foundational work beforehand.
[12:07] Dr. Moya Hill: That's true, and I completely agree with you. I mean, is it work? Yes,
[12:11] it's work. It's work to do this. But, you know, without doing this, you're putting your organization at risk. How are you doing that? You're dumping all your sensitive information into the AI.
[12:21] You're dumping all of it. You're mixing all of it together.
[12:23] And you are hiring. Most companies are hiring AI engineers, right? And they're putting these safety filter, as I call it. AI don't say this. AI don't do that. And it's shallow stuff, but the reality is information you're dumping into your AI,
[12:37] they're, they're precious gold. They are your gold.
[12:40] And you have to make sure that if someone, you have to make sure that information is, is, is structured properly. And I structural level, I understand how valuable certain information is being without guessing.
[12:53] Because right now AI is just guessing. You don't want to guess, you want it to know.
[12:57] Debbie Reynolds: Oh, I love that. You don't want to guess, you want it to know. I love that.
[13:01] Right. And then also I tell people, if you're trying to have a system do something for you,
[13:06] it's better to give them an affirmative instruction as opposed to tell them, don't do this. So instead of saying, don't look at the purple elephant, all they're like, is purple elephant, purple elephant, purple elephant.
[13:17] Instead of like, I want you to do this as opposed to don't do this, don't do this. That just, that's like a disaster.
[13:25] Dr. Moya Hill: I agree.
[13:26] Debbie Reynolds: Yeah. So what is happening in the world right now that's concerning you most as it relates to AI or data or governance?
[13:37] Dr. Moya Hill: I think what's going on right now in the world that really concerns me is that one, you know,
[13:42] organizations do not take information governance seriously. And it's necessary,
[13:47] it's not a maybe it's needed to govern AI. It's a foundation of governing AI.
[13:51] All AI models, all of them,
[13:55] drift,
[13:56] hallucinates, bias, every single one of them. Why is that? It's not the model is a problem, it's the information beneath it is a problem. And it's not governed properly, it's not structured, the data isn't structured properly.
[14:07] None of that stuff is structured. And so the AI, it only they have the same called garbage in, garbage out. Right? And so if you put crazy information into the AI, it's all over the place.
[14:18] It's unstructured, it's just a mess everywhere. Sensitive information, non sensitive records, non records. I mean, all this stuff is mixing together. You dump it into the AI,
[14:27] you're going to release what it, what it. When it gets right. It's going to give you what you give it in a sense.
[14:32] And so that's what's concerning to me. Most people think that this cannot be fixed. Most people think this is just normal, this is just a more normal part of the AI.
[14:40] It's not perfect. Right. But I guarantee you this can be better. You have to pay attention to the information governance and put the structures of information governance and the principles into your Your model.
[14:50] Debbie Reynolds: Yeah, I think that's true. And I feel like there should be like a curation layer before you start to put things into AI. You know, I almost think of it like a librarian.
[15:03] Right.
[15:04] So a librarian can,
[15:06] like. Libraries are organized a certain way. So like, let's say you want to do something with science. You wouldn't put something about cooking in a science,
[15:16] you know,
[15:17] project because you're like, oh, that's not related. Right. So being able to really understand why what you're trying to do,
[15:24] what you're trying to achieve and being able to curate that information is really important.
[15:28] But then also, one, I say a lot when I do my speaking and things I tell people,
[15:33] instead of garbage in, garbage out, I say, well, the AI is like garbage in, junkyard out. It's like, because you're going to get way more junk than what you put in.
[15:41] So.
[15:42] So, yeah, so it's like.
[15:44] So because it's a compounding,
[15:47] snowballing effect, is even more vital that you make sure that you put good data in to begin with because that gives you the best result at in. But what are your thoughts?
[15:57] Dr. Moya Hill: I do wanna. I'm glad you mentioned that. I wanna add something too.
[15:59] So you mentioned about the librarian and just basically like organizing everything, your information. I'm glad you mentioned that. This is something I preach a lot.
[16:08] So what I always tell people is AI needs governance metadata.
[16:14] For those of you who do not understand what metadata is, I understand that metadata is just basically labels. It's labels for your information. The same thing as miss Debbie was is talking about is you.
[16:23] You have to. It teaches AI what, what is sensitive, what is not, what is a privacy record, what is a cyber security like. It tells AI what is what. Right now, he has no idea.
[16:32] He has no idea what this record is, what is not, what is high risk, is low risk. He has no idea right now because again, information governance has been neglected.
[16:41] So we need governance metadata. We need metadata that focus on governance. Right. So you can govern each record.
[16:48] And so AI understands and know what each of these records. Records are.
[16:54] Debbie Reynolds: Absolutely. And I've always thought of that as well.
[16:57] So when typically metadata, let's say you created a Microsoft Word document. It may say, like Moya created this document at this date, she edited this date and different things. But I think with AI, I think more electronic data will have to carry more metadata about the information.
[17:17] Because if,
[17:18] if you do that, then the machine or the AI or whatever tools you're using can read and take actions based on that data. So it may say, okay, this is personal sensitive information.
[17:29] So it may be a trigger, say okay, you can't do this with that, or you can't move it here, or this person can't see that. So I'm really excited to see organizations really be able to use metadata in those ways.
[17:42] Cause I think is a technology that exists right now and it just needs people to populate that information.
[17:48] Dr. Moya Hill: What do you think it's a shift that needs to happen, Ms. Debbie? It's an absolute shift. I mean organizations right now are neglecting, like I said, structuring their data, organizing their data.
[17:57] And they don't realize that it's necessary to ensure that the AI behave up to, at the ultimate level. And that's what they all want. They all want the AI to act right, reduce risk.
[18:07] Because I'm going to give you One example, Ms. Debbie. There are people right now using AI and AI is giving them information and information is inaccurate, is not accurate and AI is not saying the information is inaccurate.
[18:18] Someone like me and you will double check it, right? Most people are not double checking it.
[18:22] And this is causing, organizations don't understand this is a major risk to their organization.
[18:27] If someone uses an information that's inaccurate and do something with it, that's a major risk to your organization. So I always preach information governance is not optional. It's not, it's a necessity that you must do to ensure your or your AI operate at the ultimate level to protect you and your organization.
[18:45] Debbie Reynolds: Right? Exactly. Exactly right. I always say it's like you have to eat your vegetables before dessert, right?
[18:53] Dr. Moya Hill: Yeah.
[18:53] Debbie Reynolds: Let's say AI is dessert and then vegetables is governance. And so you're supposed to do that before you get into it.
[19:00] So we talked about data,
[19:02] we talked about governance. But AI governance is an evolving area. Obviously AI governance existed. To me the difference is, and I want your thoughts.
[19:13] So AI is not new, but the way the tools that we're now using or people have capabilities to use,
[19:20] they're doing newer things. And I think one of the bigger risks we have with AI is that a lot of AI that I thought about in the past,
[19:29] it was very purpose built and very narrow and the types of things that they can do. But now people have these tools where it's allowing them to just throw all types of stuff in there and it's like they're like, yeah, let's throw it in there, it'll be magical.
[19:42] Like literally. I was horrified.
[19:45] Like a major insurance company,
[19:47] the CEO of a major insurance company said, yeah, we're going to throw all our claims in the AI generation and have it do our stuff. And I could have fainted when he said that.
[19:56] I'm like, oh, God, no, no, don't
[19:58] Dr. Moya Hill: do that, don't do that. Especially unstructured. Come on.
[20:02] Debbie Reynolds: Yeah, right, Come on.
[20:04] Dr. Moya Hill: No,
[20:05] right,
[20:06] Debbie, that's a problem because they do this and they think they put governance afterwards. They don't even think about governance. And so it's like, isn't governance come before?
[20:15] And then they have all these issues and they're wondering, oops, why do I have all these issues?
[20:19] What do you think? You might have all this issue because you're neglecting governance. You have to have governance before you even think about the model. I mean.
[20:27] Debbie Reynolds: Yeah, right, right.
[20:29] I think the problem is because the model's not going to stop you from putting stuff in there and it's going to give you something. It may not be good, it's probably not going to be accurate.
[20:39] It's probably going to be trash. Right. It's not going to stop you from doing that. But it's like the people who have the best results in using AI have done that work beforehand.
[20:52] And then they pick and choose what goes in. They don't just throw everything in. And so. And we're especially with unstructured data. Unstructured data has been a huge problem for organizations forever as long as data existed.
[21:04] And so a lot of them thinking, oh, wow, finally we can do some unstructured data. Let's just throw everything in there and turn it through and,
[21:14] and see what we can do.
[21:15] Dr. Moya Hill: AI to do the work. That's not how it works, I promise you.
[21:20] AI is just, it's a technology.
[21:22] Right. You have to control it. You can't let it control you. And so if you let it control you, you're going to have problems, which they're having right now.
[21:29] You control the AI. AI is information system.
[21:32] And so you have to control the information before you put it in some model so it act right. If you don't do that, it's going to create drift, hallucination, problems, risk.
[21:40] All this stuff that's going on right now, that's exactly what's going to happen.
[21:44] Debbie Reynolds: Yeah, let's talk a little bit about, like accountability.
[21:48] Like,
[21:49] I feel like people,
[21:51] we're even seeing this in legal cases where people put stuff in the AI tools. It does something incorrect and then they use the output for something. They're like, the dog ate my homework.
[22:02] They're trying to blame the AI tool or sue the AI company just like, no, but you took that action. Regardless of what result you got. You're the person that took the action and you're the one who's ultimately responsible for the action.
[22:16] But what are your thoughts?
[22:17] Dr. Moya Hill: I love that you mentioned that, because I have an example of that. So an attorney, actually, I don't know
[22:22] Debbie Reynolds: if you heard of this.
[22:23] Dr. Moya Hill: So an attorney went to court and he uses AI. He used AI for his research,
[22:28] and I guess his research was inaccurate, and so I guess he got disbarred for it. But it's a perfect example of showing people that people are using AI right now and thinking that AI is a law and thinking that AI is as accurate as it can possibly be.
[22:43] I'm here to tell you right now it is not.
[22:46] It's not. It spits out information that sometimes you think is. It doesn't tell you. Sometimes it doesn't tell you. It spits out information that you think is correct, but it's not correct, it's not accurate.
[22:57] You must always verify the information that comes out of AI. Not sometimes, not maybe all the time.
[23:05] And this because why this is happening. I'm going back to information governance. I have to. They are not structuring their data, they're not structuring their information, they're not going to the source.
[23:15] And as much as I love AI engineers, right? You guys are amazing at what you do.
[23:20] You're not information governance professionals. You guys don't understand this. So you're safe to filler that you do put after them. Again, not before the model. They put it after the model.
[23:30] It provides a safe environment. Right. I would say don't do this, this shallow stuff, but the reality is you need the structure, you need to dig deep into really structuring the data, the information, the records, all of that stuff.
[23:43] So your AI can be as accurate as possible.
[23:45] Debbie Reynolds: Yeah, right. We're saying you should do the data governance and the information governance ahead of time. But really what is also avoiding,
[23:56] in addition to reducing your risk is also reducing the costs on the back end that you have to try to remediate or go back. So I'm sure this attorney that got disbarred, he would rather have not been disbarred,
[24:12] probably if he had checked the record. But then also if companies are just throwing anything into these models and then using it for anything, not only are they having legal risk,
[24:22] but the time, because you're gonna need a human to help try to fix some of these problems, you're really creating more work for yourself on the back end.
[24:32] Dr. Moya Hill: Yes, more work More money. I mean, taking the time to really structure your data and govern your information is gonna cause you major risks in the future. And something I wanna talk about compliance, it's not just about structuring your data and all of that.
[24:45] You wanna also be compliant with all these laws. And so if you include your legal team into it, I talk about a unified information governance structure. I talk about that all the time.
[24:52] It includes legal, it includes records management, privacy,
[24:56] foia. I talk about transparency, risk management,
[24:59] even training. Because you have, you know, human oversight. You have to have someone is, is making sure that this stuff is, is working the way it should be. So if you include all of these into one structure, I guarantee you your AI system will be, like I said, as accurate as possible.
[25:13] And that attorney that got disbarred, if this was the case,
[25:17] I guarantee you, chance of him getting disbarred wouldn't have been so high.
[25:22] So this is why organizations, it's very important for you to understand that it's much more than legal issues. It's also saving you money and saving you time and saving you problems in the future that you really can't afford, you really don't want.
[25:34] Debbie Reynolds: I always say when I think about people who are, who want to move into the AI governance area,
[25:42] I always love to talk with people who are in records, who are information management,
[25:47] those people who have that deep kind of data knowledge and they understand what these huge technological transformations are doing to, not only the way that we used to use Rutgers, but then understanding how we need to change in the future.
[26:02] But what are your thoughts?
[26:03] Dr. Moya Hill: I love that you mentioned that information governance. I'm really big in the information governance community. It's kind of where I started. So I always preach in records management, like I said before, there's something called a file plan and it's a very structured document.
[26:17] It really turns information into records and it governs all of that.
[26:21] So that's where I got my thought from. It's like, huh, records management have this, they have a structure to do this.
[26:27] But the issue with that structure, it only governs records, it only deals with records. You need a structure that includes data,
[26:34] information and records within that structure. And then the structure incorporates the fields I talk about. The risk management officer can use that structure, the FOIA officer can use that structure, the training officer can use that structure, the legal personnel can use that structure.
[26:49] And even records officers, all these people can use one structure to know where the information is, where the records are, where the data is. We never had this before. We've been so siloed that we've had data over here, information over here, and records over here.
[27:03] Completely different fields doing their own thing. And at end of the day, an organization really has all of them. They're all using the same data. Information and records. I talk about continuum all the time.
[27:16] I said data turns into information,
[27:19] information turns into records. It's a continuum.
[27:22] So why would we operate in isolation when it is a continuum? A record has data in it and information in it enters a record. So the record holds all of that.
[27:32] Why would you not converse? Why would you not collaborate? Why would you not talk to each other within the organization?
[27:38] Debbie Reynolds: Yeah, it's so funny that you just said that. So I was going to ask you to explain this to people. So I think people don't understand the difference between a record and data.
[27:47] Can you break it down, Steve? A lot of people don't literally have no idea that they're different.
[27:52] Dr. Moya Hill: I love that you asked that. Yes, a lot. I talk about it. I teach this all the time. People don't understand the difference between, I would say even the three. Let's start with data, for example.
[28:00] Data is just captured and it's basically what do you put on paper? You, you observe something, you see something and you write it down or you upload it into a, into a system.
[28:10] Right. It's just, I wouldn't say it's information. It's just something that you just put down on paper in a sense. Right? It's unstructured. It's. Most of it is unstructured. It's something you put down.
[28:19] Now, information is context behind that. So if you have John 23, and then you just have random stuff putting down, that's just data floating around. But then we add meeting behind that data.
[28:30] It turns the information.
[28:31] John is 23 years old. He live at 2391 Orchestra Lane or something like that. I mean, it's kind of the information and then you turn it into a record. Now what is a record?
[28:40] A record is evidence of business activity.
[28:43] So you, when you put something like the information, right, and on this date this happened, or if, if, if John emailed a coworker using his, his, his government or his, his, his company's email address and emailed it out, it's a record of what happened,
[28:58] you know, at that moment.
[28:59] So information, all of this a record of business activity,
[29:03] not all information within your organization or records. Again, organization, I want you to understand this now. Information in your organization is a record. This is why you have your records officers, they Turn the information into records.
[29:16] Because not all information is evidence of business activity. It's just not.
[29:20] Debbie Reynolds: So, yeah,
[29:22] that's a mic drop. That's a mic drop moment right there.
[29:26] I think in the past, people thought if,
[29:29] if data, if, if information within a company wasn't a record, that they didn't need to govern everything else. And that's not true.
[29:40] So everything needs to be governed in, in the, the organization, not just the record.
[29:45] No.
[29:46] Dr. Moya Hill: Agreed.
[29:48] Debbie Reynolds: So if it were the world according to you, Dr. Moya, and we did everything you said,
[29:53] what would be your wish for privacy or data or records or AI anywhere in the world, whether that be human behavior,
[30:01] technology or regulation?
[30:02] Dr. Moya Hill: I love that you asked me that question.
[30:04] In a perfect world, I would have organizations understand that, hey,
[30:10] know what your information is. Know what your data is. Know what your records are, know what they are, Structure them, organize them. It is the foundation of your organization. Your organization is built on that.
[30:20] It's your precious jewels.
[30:22] And so I would have them understand that. Utilize privacy. Protect your personal information is very important. These are your clients, these are your customers. Protect their personal information. Have a structure to do so.
[30:33] Records management. Know how long to keep your records and when to dispose of your records. That's very important. You can't have records from 1985 in 2026 floating around. Throw them out.
[30:45] And not just. That's law. There's so many laws that tells you when to dispose of a record or long to keep this record. Right. You have to be compliant. Abide by these laws.
[30:54] You don't want to get sued or fined.
[30:55] Debbie Reynolds: Right.
[30:56] Dr. Moya Hill: Don't want to do that. So do that. And also risk management.
[31:00] Tie risk to each and every record. Each and every record. Some records are high risk, some are low risk, some are medium risk. Know that training. Include your training officers.
[31:08] Talk to your people. They must know about information governance. They're the ones that are creating the records. They're the ones that create the information. They're the ones that create the data.
[31:16] How do you not include them into this process?
[31:18] You have to. An employee is really the one that creates all this stuff. They do. Your data analysts, where do you, where do they get the data from? 9% of the time they get data from your people that uploaded to your system.
[31:30] So you need to train your people. That's very important.
[31:33] If you're in the government, FOIA or Freedom of Information act, they give access to this information.
[31:39] The public, they ask for this information.
[31:42] FOIA officers release that information.
[31:44] So you want to include them into that structure. As well. So they're. They're redacting information that you don't want to be disclosed. You have to redact that information. Right? Wrong.
[31:52] Information goes out, it's a problem, it's an issue. We don't want that. Remember, AI is also consuming that as well. So if you're AI releasing information, you don't want to be released because you're not ensuring that your FOIA officers are part of the process.
[32:07] That's a problem as well. There's sensitive information in there, you know, and so you don't want that to be released. So I talk about this structure, legal, for example. Make sure your information is in accordance with the law.
[32:18] You're in compliance. You have to have a structure. In my perfect world, you have to have a structure, incorporates all of that.
[32:26] Even without AI, you have to have that. That's very important for you. Because peace of mind, peace of mind, save you money.
[32:33] And then if you choose to have AI, that's fine.
[32:36] Your AI engineers have a structure to work from. They have something to look at and say, hey,
[32:41] I know what to do now. When I put this information into the AI system, I know where everything is. At cybersecurity, for example, you have to include cybersecurity personnel because you know why.
[32:51] They safeguard the systems. Right. And they protect the information. They protect the systems and the information as well. So include that individual into the structure as well. Include all of them.
[33:01] I call my structure a unified information governance structure. It combines privacy, cybersecurity, FOIA, or transparency,
[33:08] records management, training and culture, and legal and compliance. According to research,
[33:13] if you incorporate this structure into anything that includes ancient any information system, your information will completely be governed. 100%. That's what the structure says, the research says. And so have a structure like that.
[33:27] It will make your life and your organization so much better.
[33:30] Debbie Reynolds: Oh, my gosh, that's incredible. Thank you so much for sharing all your thoughts and your words of wisdom. Oh, my goodness. This has been a tremendous. You took me to school, so give me an education here.
[33:43] This is incredible. Incredible. Well, thank you so much for being on the show. I really, really appreciate all your insights, and I'm sure the audience will as well.
[33:52] Dr. Moya Hill: Yes, ma'. Am. Thank you, Ms. Reynolds.
[33:54] Debbie Reynolds: I appreciate you.
[33:54] Dr. Moya Hill: Thank you so much. Thank you.
[33:56] Debbie Reynolds: Oh, you're welcome. You're welcome. We'll talk soon.
[33:58] Dr. Moya Hill: Thank you.
