E288 - Terri Lewis, Planet Connected Consulting (Smart Cities)
[00:00] Debbie Reynolds: The personal views expressed by our podcast guests are their own and are not legal advice or official statements by their organizations.
[00:12] Hello, my name is Debbie Reynolds. They call me the Data Diva. This is the Data Diva Talks Privacy podcast where we discuss data privacy issues with industry leaders around the world with information that businesses need to know.
[00:25] Now I have a very special guest all the way from Florida, Terri Lewis.
[00:30] She has a consulting company called Planet Connected. Welcome.
[00:34] Terri Lewis: Great to be here with you.
[00:36] Debbie Reynolds: We've been connected on LinkedIn for many years.
[00:40] We had the pleasure of having dinner together in Chicago at a fabulous Greek restaurant,
[00:47] a shout out to Greek islands in Chicago.
[00:50] And I always appreciate your deep thinking about data. I think I attract and like data people.
[00:59] But the way that you think about it and the way that you talk about it in terms of smart cities, which is one of your specialties,
[01:05] I would just love for people to get a sense of you, your background and your interest in smart cities.
[01:13] Terri Lewis: Okay, well, first off, you know, Debbie, I've been a big fan. Yes, I,
[01:18] I love your podcast. I love your LinkedIn post. It's very insightful and I think it drives a lot of good professional dialogue on the LinkedIn platform. So I always learn something, so just want to get that off.
[01:31] So my background is I worked 32 years in industry actually for Caterpillar in the last years in my career there. And I was responsible for their digital strategy or their power and energy industry vertical.
[01:45] There's three industry verticals and construction, mining, and then power and energy that nobody knows about. But it's actually a very significant part of the business.
[01:54] And that's where I really got into data management. So from a privacy and security.
[02:00] And then in 2019,
[02:03] I retired, failed miserably at that and really had a passion even when I was working in Peoria with helping startups get going in the IoT space. You know, now it's AI, but before it was IoT space.
[02:17] You're really helping startups. So that's what I do is I work with people and help them get their business going around technology and deployment and then really morphed into what I find is that there's a, you know, tremendous opportunity for cities and government type and agencies to leverage technology.
[02:37] And then there's a lot of technologists who have opportunities to work with government agencies. So I kind of the,
[02:44] I say the matchmaker to help them work together.
[02:47] And that's where I got a big passion for helping cities be successful in terms of using technology and really getting the fundamentals right was, is really Building that trust and transparency with the,
[02:59] the public,
[03:00] the voters on what they're doing with, with technology.
[03:04] So excellent.
[03:06] Debbie Reynolds: I would love for you to tell the story because I think sometimes when people think about technology in cities, they don't really think about personal data or privacy and so they don't understand how those things end up in those smart city systems.
[03:21] But can you explain a little bit of the types of systems the cities have may be collecting data about people?
[03:29] Terri Lewis: Oh my goodness.
[03:31] Debbie Reynolds: Yeah.
[03:31] Terri Lewis: You know, as I'll take water utilities now, instead of having somebody come out and read your water meter to look at your water consumption, you have smart meters that are actually remotely transmitting data in terms of consumption.
[03:45] So you have an address,
[03:48] you can find the owner and you can find their water consumption and then from there you can induce,
[03:56] you can deduct when they're going to be home and potentially how many people are home and you can merge that with other kind of data about somebody. And it's great insights for burglars,
[04:07] you know, people with nefarious intent.
[04:10] But it's an absolutely great game changer technology for a city to improve their efficiency in terms of their billing and water management. It also helps them manage leaks. Right. So you have a distribution from a water facility in terms of drinking water,
[04:25] you have consumption and it's what they call non revenue water loss.
[04:30] So that technology helps look at the consumption and the disproduction and that gives you your water losses. So it's, it's a fabulous technology for cities,
[04:40] but in the wrong hands,
[04:42] you know, people can do bad things with it.
[04:45] Debbie Reynolds: Yeah.
[04:46] And I think that this theme comes up a lot, I think where sometimes when we're thinking about a technology,
[04:53] we're only thinking about the benefits. We're not really,
[04:56] sometimes not really thinking about what those risks are to an individual because you're collecting data that was never collected before. Right. Just like you said before, it was just someone,
[05:07] actual person coming out meter to meter certain times of the year to read people's meters. And so now because it's connected and then also people have apps, right.
[05:18] Where they're also using those apps and they're exchanging more information not just about the, the water service, but also their whereabouts, types of phones they use, things like that. So that's always a concern.
[05:31] Yeah.
[05:32] Terri Lewis: Yep, yep. So yeah, it's a, it's. And another one, a big one is also law enforcement. Right. And I think you and I both commented on license plate readers,
[05:43] it's a great benefit for, for law enforcement,
[05:46] but it's also in the wrong hands and it's happened. Right. We've seen it in the news where somebody has access to the data where you had an officer who became stalking an ex spouse.
[06:00] So yeah, to your point, I'm a big fan of what they call a process FMEA look at your process, your failure mode and effect analysis. What could go wrong and then how are we going to mitigate it really sitting back and being proactive of managing these,
[06:17] these issues. Right. And then even updating it. Because there's. Most people have good intentions so they, they have a hard time thinking of what could go wrong. So just keeping that updated and that discipline.
[06:29] Debbie Reynolds: Yeah, it's true. I think people for the most part do have good intentions but we know bad actors are very creative as well.
[06:36] And then also they, there can be a lot of harm that happens to people that is unintentional. Right. So unintended consequences of something that may not have been thought through in a certain,
[06:48] certain way. I actually have a story I want to tell. When we're talking about smart cities, it's something that got me raising my fists up. In Chicago recently.
[06:57] There's a mall that I like to go to in Chicago and they recently,
[07:03] recently started a program with a new company, a third party company for parking. And the parking is like you have to download app, you are forced to enter your credit card whether or not you are at the place long enough to be charged for parking, right?
[07:22] Cause I think it's free for a certain amount of time and it also takes your license plate. And I'm like literally I'm here for 30 minutes and like why would I give you this information?
[07:32] So for me it's, it's sort of a.
[07:36] To me I was questioning, I'm like, well why would you collect all this information about me just because I want to go to a mall? To me I think it's different if you're like at an airport or something.
[07:48] But a mall seems like it's a bit heavy handed. But what are your thoughts? I think those are the types of things, especially in a smart cities way.
[07:56] You need to think about how the consumer is,
[08:00] what their perception of that data collection is. And my thought first was like I know this mall,
[08:07] right. But I don't know this third party and I don't really trust that with my information.
[08:11] But what do you think?
[08:12] Terri Lewis: I think that's an excellent example. I've seen several cities deploying these apps instead of parking meters. Right. Nobody carries change around anymore and it's a problem But I think going back to the cities of having backing up is having a city have a data management plan, right.
[08:31] And it includes the privacy and the security.
[08:36] And then they have a strategy around it. And then when they go out to go for an RFP with a technology vendor,
[08:42] right. They have these guidelines, compliance guidelines.
[08:46] Most cities don't have that.
[08:48] And so they go out and they go get an app or get a technology and you don't know it's a problem until somebody gets hacked,
[08:56] you know, with their parking app. So starting off is really I'm a big advocate for a city to proactively go out there and develop this plan. Right.
[09:07] That's hard, right? A lot of them don't want to do it.
[09:11] Debbie Reynolds: Well, yeah, a lot of them don't want to do it. I think too a lot of times and I want your thoughts. I think a lot of times there may be tunnel vision about okay, we have this problem.
[09:22] This looks like a really nice shiny solution.
[09:24] And maybe not thinking through what the public will think, right? What the public, how people will interact with. Interact with this. And then also and to me this happens across all industries.
[09:36] And it's like keeping data too long over data collection, right? Not really thinking through why you collect data and what's the purpose. And then I feel like especially certain data about people,
[09:49] depending on how granular it is or identifiable it is to the person, it can seep into those sensitive data areas like location tracking.
[09:59] And so I think sometimes organizations may not know that they need to handle that data or treat it differently or have a higher be on higher alert for those types of things.
[10:12] But what are your thoughts?
[10:13] Terri Lewis: I agree and I go back to. That's why I think the work that you do is so important when you work with companies and hopefully cities too is I go back to a city has from a land use zoning they have what they call a comprehensive plan.
[10:28] I'm on a planning board here locally.
[10:30] And what that is is it's a strategy for what citizens want out of their community. Right. It addresses green space and parks and recreation and commercial development, that kind of stuff.
[10:43] And I think that that's where if a city would sit down with that same gather the feedback from the residents about a data management plan. So it doesn't have to be a legal agreement, right.
[10:54] In terms of all the hard to understand but says maps out from a city functions.
[11:01] We first off, we respect your choices, right. To opt in or opt out if possible.
[11:07] We protect your data. And then they see how they're going to Protect their data.
[11:11] Why we're getting the data. The idea is to create value, better environment,
[11:15] you know, better security,
[11:16] reduce cost.
[11:17] And we're transparent about the data we collect.
[11:21] And that you have that boiled down as a strategy document and then inside you have it into an execution plan that goes back to you get into the definitions of some of these.
[11:32] Compliance, SOC compliance as an example and role based access and some of your it, you know the details of how you execute it and then that gets,
[11:42] it's clear for all of the city departments and functions how to do that. But you have this, compare this what you're going to do. I think where they, where cities get in trouble is, you know, to your point with your parking meter app is like,
[11:55] why am I doing this? You know, they haven't explained it, right?
[11:59] And they haven't explained who's gets the data,
[12:02] how long are they going to keep it, how are they going to protect it and who has access to it,
[12:07] right? So if they had that up front and mapped out,
[12:11] then it's easier in execution because it gives you where you need to go.
[12:16] Debbie Reynolds: I want your thoughts on iot. So this is obviously an area that you're very deeply steeped in and I work in that area as well.
[12:24] But what challenges in your mind do IoT devices bring to the data space that people may not think about,
[12:35] oh
[12:35] Terri Lewis: my gosh, we're nodes on the Internet. I just talked about smart meters, you talked about a parking meter, you talk about license plate readers.
[12:43] If you look at a city function,
[12:45] it's gobs of nodes on the Internet, right? Your utility transfer pumps, lift stations, all that stuff is they're all connected.
[12:53] So it's a huge distributed network as well. So which then that gets into not just the data privacy, but security, right? All of the cyber risks that cities have to comply with or should.
[13:06] Right.
[13:07] Debbie Reynolds: I want your thoughts. I think part of IoT that makes it in my view a bit unique is that these devices, they can last for a long time.
[13:19] So you're talking about data collection over a longer period of time.
[13:22] And then also the devices can change, right?
[13:27] They can be updated over the air. And so you have more capabilities that can be imbued into a technology that may be.
[13:35] Maybe the technology is doing something now that it didn't do six months ago and that becomes a concern. It's like, okay, so it's doing new things.
[13:44] Are organizations communicating that to the user? Do they know what the risks are? And then also there's a responsibility part, right? To especially if a let's say a consumer has a Iot device in their house or something like that,
[13:59] there's a part of that as a responsibility from them as well. There's a part that they have to play as well that they may not be aware of. What do you think?
[14:07] Terri Lewis: Oh, that's a really good question, Debbie. I think you and I have kind of traded. Some of the comments on LinkedIn about this is, you know, anytime you got a camera out there, whether it's a ring doorbell or it's license plate reader or it's a speedy camera,
[14:24] do we all give consent to record our images just because we go out in public? I mean, where is that? It seems to be that's you go out in public and you give your consent to be recorded.
[14:35] That's kind of scary. That's way beyond even just location data. Right. That's your image. And now with AI and image processing, what do you do with it? Right. And I go back to license plate readers and I'll call out Flock in particular because they've been in the news a lot.
[14:51] Right. You've got a license plate reader that reads it. It's a camera.
[14:56] So what says it's going to stop at just reading your license plate? To your point, you're updated and it's taking a picture of everybody that's walking down the street.
[15:04] We've got autonomous cars or that are recording data.
[15:10] The Tesla Cybertruck is, I think some of the people, I don't know what the data download is, but they're recording as they're driving through the community. There's cameras all over and it's helping them gather data for their autonomous vehicles.
[15:23] But I don't know what the answer is on that one. But I think that there's gotta be some discussion and dialogue about.
[15:31] To your point, especially cameras on,
[15:34] if they evolve, they get updated.
[15:36] How are you transparent about people that are walking in front of those cameras that they're being recorded and what's happening with it?
[15:43] Debbie Reynolds: You said something just really sparked a thought in my head and I never even thought about that. So when we're talking about license plate readers, you are a thousand percent right.
[15:53] And I hadn't thought about that. It's like, who say this? Not recording more than that.
[15:58] I never even thought about that. That is so true. Oh my gosh, that's so true. And scary too.
[16:05] Terri Lewis: Yep. And then, you know, with AI tools, you know, the image processing,
[16:10] there's a lot of things you can do with it. Right.
[16:13] You know, they could overlay, they could go gather your facial recognition data somewhere else and not only record that a woman walking down the street, but they can say, hey, it's Debbie Reynolds.
[16:23] Debbie Reynolds: Right? And so that takes it out of the realm of the way people think about the lack of privacy. People say, you don't have privacy in public. But also I think those laws or regulations never imagine that people could be identifiable by technology.
[16:40] So it isn't just a person walking down the street, as you say. It can be like smart glasses literally scanning your face and say, hey, this person works here, they live there and they're married to this person and they have 10 kids or something.
[16:54] That's very scary. That's outside of the scope of the way that a lot of laws or regulations were written because that capability didn't exist.
[17:03] Terri Lewis: I love the Consumer Electronics show in Vegas in January. And it's just. For me, it's just amazing how image processing has evolved.
[17:11] That's exciting,
[17:13] right? But it's also really scary if we don't think about some of the nefarious factors.
[17:19] Debbie Reynolds: So what's happening in the world right now that's concerning you as it relates to data or privacy or technology?
[17:26] Terri Lewis: Probably the biggest thing is that there's. From a city perspective or just in general?
[17:32] Debbie Reynolds: Well, in general, it doesn't have to be a city.
[17:35] Terri Lewis: I think one area that's its concern for me is connected and autonomous cars.
[17:41] Just that they're cameras and on wheels and recording absolutely everything.
[17:49] And then they're also recording the driver,
[17:51] but they're also recording everybody around it. And then all of that data is going to data brokers without people's consent,
[17:58] and then it's getting sold.
[18:00] And so we are, with social media platforms, we're the product, right? Whether Facebook or Instagram, we're the product that they're selling to media. But now it's also our images when we go out in public, and that it's just getting bigger.
[18:14] That's what I really like with what you do and some of your key folks, you know, Andrea and Jeff lock us is people don't understand it.
[18:24] People don't understand how big this data broker market is,
[18:27] and they're not participating in it.
[18:31] So that's the concern. The concern is the lack of people understanding it.
[18:35] Debbie Reynolds: Well, it's true, because I think a lot of times some of the organizations that put out these technologies,
[18:43] they very much focus on the benefit, but they don't really talk about the potential risk and the data collection. Like, I know in Chicago we have a pilot program where you have These little robots that look like ice coolers on wheels.
[18:59] And I guess they deliver a meal or something like that. And so they have eyes on it. And they said, people, they look so cute. You know, the ephraimorphize the delivery thing.
[19:09] But I'm like, in order for that technology to work, it has to, like, look at everything. It's recording everything around you. And so, like, what is recording? Why is it recording?
[19:20] Why is it capturing it? Right. So I feel like there's just.
[19:24] That's such an open space for challenges as it relates to people's personal information.
[19:32] Terri Lewis: Yeah. That whole issue of do we own our data?
[19:36] Right. That the EU has been advanced in terms of your data is part of the.
[19:44] You own it. Right. And we still haven't come to that agreement yet in the United States, and we probably won't because there's too many people making money on it.
[19:54] And until something happens, I always, with some of the, working with attorneys over the years, we used to say that Europe regulates the US Litigates. So we wait till something goes really wrong and then we just have lawsuits.
[20:06] And if there's enough of them, then we finally regulate.
[20:09] Debbie Reynolds: I think that's true.
[20:12] I know that Europe,
[20:13] they have a new law as it relates to IoT about making sure people have more transparency about their personal information being captured in IoT devices.
[20:24] And I know that a lot of manufacturers in the US before this even happened, they were really pushing against that. And so we're seeing more of a move where I think that a lot of IoT makers who want to sell products in the US and Europe will probably try to align with that regulation because it makes it easier for them to sell their product anywhere,
[20:49] as opposed to saying, oh, I can't sell this in Europe or I can't sell this xyz, what do you think?
[20:55] Terri Lewis: I was. I'm very proud of the Caterpillar organization.
[20:59] When we were having our data principles,
[21:01] we had that exact option of connected product is to the discussion about, do we have a customer opt in, they're collecting of data, or did they have to opt out?
[21:10] Right. We're going to go get the data and they have to explicitly opt out.
[21:14] And we sat back and we had a lot of discussions, said, what's the right thing to do? Right. And EU hadn't totally formalized it. And we said the right thing to do to do for the customer is be transparent and have them opt in.
[21:27] So it was very much a part of the brand issue. I think if companies that take data has a Lot of value. But if they take that idea that it creates trust and long term brand value then they're better longer term.
[21:41] I know a lot of em are just if they're global players then they're gonna maybe comply with the most stringent regulations just cause it's easier and then they can deploy it.
[21:51] But oftentimes the most stringent is the right thing to do for everybody.
[21:55] Debbie Reynolds: So that's,
[21:57] I know how influential even though we don't have certain laws or regulations the same way that they do in the eu,
[22:06] I know how influential it can be especially with devices and device makers. So an example of that would be Apple. When Europe said that they had to have USB C connections on iPhones,
[22:19] they didn't want to do it. They eventually did it.
[22:22] But that's the reason why new iPhones even we get in the US are usb. Cuz they were like well why do it differently in different countries when we could just force it on everyone?
[22:32] So I know a lot of people don't like are upset about USB C, they want their lightning back in the U.S. but that's just the way that cookie has been crumbling lately.
[22:42] So it's very interesting to see those developments.
[22:45] Terri Lewis: Well and that was really due to E waste, electronic waste and again I don't think the public understands how toxic that is. We used to,
[22:54] developed countries used to send all of our electronic waste to China and India probably around the early 2012, 2013. And then you've got these children or poor people sitting around with electronic.
[23:10] We put them all in boats and shipped all of this stuff out. And they had children sitting there with electronics and vats acid, you know,
[23:18] dissolving the precious metals off of it. And they said this and then it just goes into their water.
[23:23] So they said no, stop.
[23:25] And so then the United States and Europe had to figure out what are we going to do with all of this toxic waste.
[23:31] And so that's really what started it. And then manufacturers make a lot of money like Apple if every time you get a new phone you have to get a new core.
[23:38] I mean look at how many cords we carry around for gosh sakes. Right,
[23:43] so that's where I think the regulations drove business to the right things. And it's hard for businesses to all agree it's the same old argument. Remember VHS versus 8 track versus get through these.
[23:55] So it, it finally converges. Same thing we're having with electric vehicles in terms of charging styles. Right.
[24:01] Debbie Reynolds: So but yeah,
[24:04] very interesting to see this evolve.
[24:07] I want your thoughts about AI so AI is the new IoT. Remember when people, back in the day, people were gaga by AI, I mean Iot. And then we went on to Metaverse and now we're on AI now.
[24:20] But what are your thoughts about AI,
[24:24] especially things like autonomous agents. I know you talked about autonomous vehicles.
[24:29] Now I'm talking about autonomous agents.
[24:31] What do you think?
[24:32] Terri Lewis: It's really interesting to see how this is evolving. And I used a lot of the AI tools just to see how they, they work. I don't think that they're there yet in terms of human intelligence, they're a great tool now.
[24:44] I was laughing long time ago. You know, you used to have,
[24:49] when I was first starting in college, had your Texas Instruments calculator and it was $150 and I barely do basic math.
[24:58] Well, you couldn't use it in your exams. And then my uncle's got, it's still got his slide rule.
[25:04] I think that AI is going to evolve into a tool that we use right now. It's still understanding how to use it.
[25:11] That's a really tough thing for educators, especially for children. Right? Is how do you teach children to use technology like AI and still learn and develop those critical thinking skills?
[25:24] It's a thing too for cities.
[25:26] I think that's a really exciting thing. These agents, AgentIQ AI to be able to automate some of these processes that could help them be more efficient. But you have to deploy it.
[25:37] And again, go back to what we said earlier was look at all the things that could go wrong. Right.
[25:42] I think the medical community is looking at some of that. How do we use it in medicine but avoid the pitfalls. I think you still need a. I think they're coming to the conclusion you still need a domain expert to sit there and go, okay, look at it before the outcomes.
[25:56] But I think it's exciting. It's still going through the process fmea looking at everything that can go wrong and being proactive about managing it.
[26:07] Debbie Reynolds: There was a story that I read recently,
[26:09] AI agent story where a company, they had put it into AI agent, into a sandbox,
[26:15] and somehow it was able to get out of the sandbox and it started mining cryptocurrency.
[26:24] So they were like, how did it figure out to do this and why did it do this? And so that's the concern I have about agents where I think people don't understand the technology.
[26:36] They think it's like a pet. You say sit and it sits. And it's not that way with an agent. Right? An agent,
[26:42] it has a lot of things that they could possibly do that maybe you can't even imagine. So when I heard that people were putting these agents on their computers and giving them, like, admin access to their computers, I could have fainted.
[26:57] So I was like, oh, my God. That doesn't sound like that's a good idea.
[27:01] Terri Lewis: No, no, that's. Yeah.
[27:04] And that's where I think, you know,
[27:06] there's still going to be a need for consultants to help people.
[27:10] Just like what you do, Debbie, is help people understand what the risks are, because they don't understand it. And, you know, it's. It evolves so quickly, too, that. And they don't have enough time to.
[27:20] To listen and learn. So it's depending on expertise and.
[27:25] Great. Podcast helps them.
[27:27] Debbie Reynolds: Oh, thank you, thank you, thank you.
[27:30] I want to talk a little bit more about.
[27:33] We could talk about autonomous vehicles, but just cars in general.
[27:38] Well, and you worked a Caterpillar. So when we. I was on the IoT advisory board with the US Department of Commerce, and we talked a lot about, you know, farm.
[27:48] Farming, farm equipment, things that people use in different industries. And so I think those industries don't get as much attention. But, I mean, you're.
[27:58] Those industries also are very, very heavy users of these new technology tools. Cause it really can help farmers or companies that are using this industrial equipment. What do you think?
[28:11] Terri Lewis: Yeah, I think it's. I think a lot of people don't know. Maybe it's changed. But, you know, a couple years ago, Caterpillar had the largest autonomous fleet in production in the world.
[28:20] Everybody thinks Waymo or Tesla, whatever, but it's. It's actually Cat,
[28:25] I think. Agriculture. I get really excited. I grew up in Kansas.
[28:30] Agriculture, in my mind, is one of the most leading industries in terms of IoT and AI deployment.
[28:39] They've just transformed. And nobody knows about it unless you're out on the farm.
[28:43] You don't know about it, but it's super exciting what they're doing in terms of, you know, autonomous planting and, you know, laying out the seeds and sensing the soil moisture and adjusting the way they.
[28:55] They do the crops. And that's really exciting.
[28:59] AGCO is really.
[29:01] They're working with the Trimble and doing some really interesting stuff and smart planters.
[29:07] So the. The planter communicating to the tractor. Now, the downside for a lot of farmers is you can't afford a lot of the big equipment if you're just a small family farm.
[29:16] But so again, they've kind of transformed into. And they've done it for decades. We get Excited about sharing scooters or sharing cars? Well,
[29:25] agriculture has been sharing equipment for and fleet harvesters that go through and they, they buy the harvester and they go harvest everybody's field everywhere from Oklahoma to Kansas to Nebraska.
[29:36] So it's a fascinating industry.
[29:39] I get excited about is.
[29:42] Debbie Reynolds: I think it is really fascinating. Well, and we benefit from a lot of those innovations,
[29:48] even though we may not see the technology behind it, which is really interesting.
[29:52] I want your thoughts about this,
[29:55] the thing that happens. So I'll give you an example. So let's say you have a smart speaker that you purchased and you purchased it. Let's say you purchased it three years ago.
[30:06] And so now that smart speaker can't be updated anymore.
[30:12] So it's not getting the patches and things like that, but it still works. Right?
[30:17] And so people are still using the smart speaker. It's still working and doing all the things they want with it.
[30:24] But over time, it becomes more risky for them to use that thing because they don't.
[30:31] Because now it's behind in terms of being updated. It can no longer be updated for security.
[30:37] And this is a huge problem or issue in IoT,
[30:42] especially, you know, for privacy as well, because a lot of times those devices, they don't just stop working, they keep working. Just like your toaster.
[30:50] Like you get a warranty for your toaster. I think it's like one year or whatever.
[30:54] Your toaster lasts for years. Years, Right. But now that you have technology in it that has to be updated and once it's out of that update cycle, it creates a risk for the individual.
[31:06] But what do you think?
[31:07] Terri Lewis: That's a really good question, Debbie. I mean, we used to call it the downside of innovation is you create this technology, but how are you going to support it, especially electronics and software, over the life of the product and that a lot of companies just walk away from it.
[31:21] Right. And you're just left hanging there with your toaster. That's smart, still might be smart, but it's a little bit vulnerable.
[31:28] Right. I think that's. That's a problem.
[31:31] Right. And again, if the consumers are educated, they'll ask the question. But I would put it back onto the companies from, you know, they know what's going to go wrong with their product.
[31:41] Be transparent with people up front and let them know.
[31:45] Right. Might change their buying criteria. I think even refrigerators, my gosh, they're all of your appliances in your kitchen and your washing machine and dryer. They're all smart,
[31:56] so to speak. Right.
[31:57] Which is cool. Functions but what happens when you don't get the patch or what happens in the software just doesn't update. It doesn't work.
[32:05] You got to go spend a thousand dollars to go get a new washer because of a software issue.
[32:11] Debbie Reynolds: Right.
[32:12] That is very challenging. And that's another thing that concerns me about like a lot of technology that happens in car.
[32:20] Someone.
[32:21] This is a story I heard a while back and this was about Tesla cars. I'm sure it's probably other cars as well.
[32:27] But there's so much technology in the screen that you interact with that I think someone, they had done some. I think they dropped a cup or something on the screen or did something and it like totally broke and cracked the screen.
[32:42] But because of that, they could. The car was not. You could not operate the car.
[32:47] Right.
[32:48] And that sounds to me that is bonkers.
[32:52] You would think, oh, okay, well, this is bad that this happened, but you should literally still be able to operate the car even without the screen. So that's one of the things that concerns me about imbuing so much technology in there where,
[33:07] you know, it's overriding the thing that the car could have done even without or should have been able to do without the technology.
[33:16] Terri Lewis: Well, that brings up a good point. You know, again, going back to cities is one of the cities working with is going back to that smart meter, you know, for the water meters is the vendor wasn't keeping the software updated and they didn't really have a plan for obsolescence.
[33:32] So what are you going to do?
[33:33] So again, that's going back to the how are you going to manage the end of the life? Not just the technology adoption, this widget, that's going to be really cool,
[33:42] but how are you going to manage for the end of the life? And that's a very good point.
[33:46] It's a little bit harder as a consumer, but that's something that ought to go into a smart city. When they're looking at technology adoption,
[33:54] you're
[33:55] Debbie Reynolds: talking about Caterpillar doing the best.
[33:59] What's the best thing to do for the consumer? Which I love that.
[34:03] But I think what you think.
[34:06] I think that that could be a differentiator for companies as well. Because I feel like I would give my money to a company that treated me well and knew that the treatment of my data was important to me.
[34:19] What do you think?
[34:20] Terri Lewis: Oh, totally agree. That was a big part of our discuss brand value. Right.
[34:26] If you lose customers trust,
[34:29] whether it's the quality of your product, your quality of your service, or now Increasingly to your data privacy.
[34:34] It's a trust issue, and it's really easy to lose it. It's really hard to gain it. But it has tremendous value for the company. Either you get a higher price, you get more loyalty with your customers.
[34:47] And again, I go back to. That's also really important for cities, too,
[34:53] is to do the best they can and then be transparent when something happens. It's really hard, I think, for city employees because it's. They're in a tough position because there's too many people that think, okay, it's.
[35:06] They're just government overhead not understanding the functions of what people do.
[35:10] So there's somewhat of a reluctance to be totally transparent. But I guess even for a company is, can you not afford to be transparent? I. I think Apple's benefited to that extent, very much so, of privacy with the apps and telling in the App Store what the data is collected.
[35:27] That's one company that probably stands out in the consumer market that's done well in that. I guess I'd ask you, do you see other people doing well besides Apple?
[35:36] Debbie Reynolds: Well, I think Apple's probably the biggest, the most visible one, and they have so much of our data. Right. So I think people do trust, you know, those products for that.
[35:47] And I think what you're talking about is app transparency that they have rolled out a couple years ago. And actually,
[35:54] that quarter that they rolled app transparency out, that was the biggest quarter that Apple ever had. And so they've been going very strong ever since. So to me,
[36:03] I thought that was the indication that people really leaned into that. They really liked it. I would like to see more companies lean into that. I think companies want to do the right thing.
[36:16] They don't want to run afoul of what people want. But I think also we have to change our mindset. Where I think some organizations feel like, well, I give a good product or I give a good service.
[36:28] No one, really,
[36:30] the data is secondary. People don't care about that, but they actually do.
[36:34] And so bringing that together, to me, that's part of the respect for the person is about their data. Because your data is you. Right. Your data represents you in digital spaces and in digital products.
[36:46] So having a respect for the person, to me, I think is definitely a branded differentiator. I'm seeing some companies try to roll around to that, but I would want to see a lot more do that as opposed to being slapped on the wrist or being caught doing something that they aren't supposed to be doing.
[37:05] Terri Lewis: Yeah, I think that's I agree with you. It'd be nice to see more of them do it. I think the smart ones, the savvy ones are.
[37:12] So hopefully they'll set the example for the others. I think Apple's to your point was that was a benefit. I think other people are kind of looking at it going, okay, if they're doing it, maybe we should do it too.
[37:23] Debbie Reynolds: So leaders and I think app stores have a lot of power.
[37:29] OS makers, I would say have a lot of power. And so for Apple to do that, I think it, you know, definitely a power move. And so I think companies that manage os,
[37:40] phones, things that we use every day,
[37:43] they have a lot of influence on how those things go. So I hope to see more lean into that in the future.
[37:51] Terri Lewis: I think one thing we didn't talk about in terms of scary, right, is healthcare tech, right?
[37:57] Debbie Reynolds: Oh yes.
[37:57] Terri Lewis: Doesn't have anything to do with cities, but I mean it's. That's a. One of the things that's been kind of a game changer is these glucose sensors, right, for diabetics to be able to manage their diabetes.
[38:09] But you read the fine print on the,
[38:11] the app, you know, and it's like they comply with maybe half waste with hipaa, right? And you and I have traded comments is people don't understand how porous that HIPAA is, right?
[38:24] And so,
[38:26] yeah,
[38:27] so that's, you know, if people have, that, if somebody has access to somebody's data, that's,
[38:32] that's pretty insightful, right? I mean, there's a lot you could deduct about a person.
[38:38] Debbie Reynolds: First of all, people think in the US that HIPAA covers all of their health information.
[38:46] And then like, say for someone, you share your health information on the Internet, it's like no one's protecting that because you kind of gave that information away.
[38:54] And so a lot of people don't understand that.
[38:56] But I have another Iot thing I want to talk about that I read about a year or two ago. It was horrifying.
[39:04] But this has to do with technology used as implanted in people's brains, like brain, brain computer interfaces.
[39:13] So a couple of years ago,
[39:16] I read an article, I think it was like an investigative report or something. It's about people doing these trials and these tests where they have certain technology implanted in them to help with like neurological issues or whatever.
[39:31] And so the companies that manufactured and were supposed to support those devices went out of business.
[39:43] And it was in the contract that the device had to be removed from the person.
[39:50] Can you imagine?
[39:51] Horrible, Horrible. And People were saying this thing was life changing. I wouldn't be able to do the things that I wanted to do without this thing. But now because this, the company went out of business and they don't support it and they don't want to have a legal issue with it,
[40:07] the person literally has to go have a second operation to get the thing removed. And so that's another thing that frightens me a lot when people talk about brand computer interfaces.
[40:17] And to me that's another Iot device as well.
[40:21] Terri Lewis: Yeah, there's. I mean, there's so many. There's, you know, watchmen for, you know,
[40:25] heart. Right.
[40:27] You know, you got pacemakers now that are the size of a quarter,
[40:31] that you can read them with your phone.
[40:33] You know, you got glucose meters, you got, you know, there's increasingly. Which again, it goes back to. There's really great things to do with the technology. But how do you manage what can go wrong?
[40:43] And like we said, the obsolescence, the end of life.
[40:46] What happens if the company goes bankrupt?
[40:49] Do people understand that once they had the implants, did they understand that that was a risk?
[40:55] Would they have changed our decision because of that?
[40:58] Debbie Reynolds: Very, very frightening.
[41:00] But Terri, if it were the world according to you and we did everything you said, what would be our wish for privacy anywhere in the world,
[41:08] whether that be human behavior, technology or regulation?
[41:14] Terri Lewis: I think it should be. If I was in charge,
[41:18] you do anything. I think it should be a constitutional amendment that you own your data and your image and everybody does. Right. So any use of it's a protection.
[41:30] It's. I think it's that important that it should be at the.
[41:34] I think we can mess around with these regulations here and there, but I think it should be a constitutional amendment. I was in charge.
[41:41] Debbie Reynolds: I love that. I love it actually. I think.
[41:44] Is it Denmark? I have to double check. So there's a country in Europe now because of deepfakes, they're making it so that everyone has copyright to their image.
[41:56] Terri Lewis: Yep.
[41:57] Debbie Reynolds: So I think that's.
[41:59] Terri Lewis: EU is pursuing that. Yep.
[42:01] Debbie Reynolds: That's a huge game changer,
[42:04] especially with all this, like you say, flock and different, like, you know, image captures and things like that. So I'm very interested to see how that plays out.
[42:13] Terri Lewis: It changes on the.
[42:15] I think big tech companies are going to be against it. I mean, it's. Because there's so much money to be made. The data brokers. What's the estimate on it is how many billions of dollars do you know?
[42:27] Do you remember the latest estimate?
[42:29] Debbie Reynolds: I don't Remember, it's up there, though. It's a lot of money. A lot of money.
[42:34] Terri Lewis: But suddenly, if you own your data and they can't just sell it, they have to buy it from you potentially right before them sell it. So right now they've got revenue and no cost of what they're selling.
[42:47] So if you. If you own your image and own your data, then there's a cost to it,
[42:52] so it's not quite as profitable.
[42:54] Debbie Reynolds: Yeah, that's true. That's true. And I think that's where people try to lean into more data monetization or things like that. So to me, if nothing else, it will bring more transparency to that transaction in some way for sure.
[43:09] Thank you so much for being on the show. We are overdue by many years. I'm glad that you were able to join me today.
[43:16] Terri Lewis: Well, can I ask you a question?
[43:17] Debbie Reynolds: Oh, yes. Yes.
[43:19] Terri Lewis: If you were in charge, what would you do?
[43:21] Debbie Reynolds: Oh, my gosh.
[43:23] Oh, you turn the tables on me.
[43:25] My wish is that I would love, in the US for privacy to be a fundamental human right in the Constitution.
[43:35] So I share your wish there.
[43:36] And then I wish that there were some type of global treaty about privacy or about what we think is fundamentally important to protect about humans. That's what I was saying.
[43:53] I wish privacy was part of that because I feel like obviously different jurisdictions have their own special sauce in the way they want to do things. But I'm like,
[44:03] like, are there any things at a fundamental basic level in the world that we can agree on about people? Like,
[44:12] what is personal data?
[44:14] What is,
[44:15] you know, freedom? You know, how do people do people on their image or should they own their. Their image or their likeness and things like that.
[44:22] So that's what I wish.
[44:25] Terri Lewis: Okay.
[44:26] Debbie Reynolds: I think I wish together.
[44:28] Terri Lewis: Yeah, I hope so, too. I think there's lots of good people out there advocating for positive change. So thank you for that.
[44:36] Debbie Reynolds: Oh, thank you, thank you, thank you. I'm so excited that you're on the show, and I'm sure everyone will love your episodes as much as I do.
[44:44] Terri Lewis: Yeah, well, I hope so. Hope somebody learned something. You didn't ask me about my shirt.
[44:49] Debbie Reynolds: No. What? Let me. What is it? What does it say?
[44:52] Terri Lewis: Supposed to guess.
[44:54] Debbie Reynolds: Oh, I can't see it. Oh, it's. Is that Nintendo?
[44:59] Terri Lewis: Game changer.
[45:00] Debbie Reynolds: Game changer. Oh, wow. Look at that. Oh, my God. Game changer. Game changer. Hilarious. Oh, my gosh.
[45:10] Terri Lewis: That's the trivia for the day.
[45:13] Debbie Reynolds: Game changer. We totally are a game changer. I love the way that you think and you have such deep thoughts, people definitely follow.
[45:21] Well, Terry, the things you post and your comments are always stellar. You always bring, like, really depth of knowledge about data and information sometimes lacking in a lot of other people.
[45:35] But you. You really.
[45:36] The first time I ever heard you comment about anything I said, oh, I got to know this lady. She's smart.
[45:42] Terri Lewis: Thank you. Likewise.
[45:44] Debbie Reynolds: All right, talk to you soon. Thank you again.
[45:47] Terri Lewis: Later, gator. Bye.
[45:49] Debbie Reynolds: Bye. Bye
