E240 - Ian Glazer, Vice President of Product Strategy, SGNL, Product Executive and Digital Identity Expert
[00:00] Debbie Reynolds: The personal views expressed by our podcast guests are their own and are not legal advice or official statements by their organizations.
[00:12] Hello, my name is Debbie Reynolds. They call me The Data Diva. This is the Data Diva Talks Privacy podcast where we discuss data privacy issues with industry leaders around the world with information that businesses need to know.
[00:25] Now I have a very special guest on the show all the way from Washington D.C.
[00:30] Ian Glaser. He is the vice president of Product strategy for SGNL.
[00:35] Welcome.
[00:36] Ian Glazer: Thank you for having me. It is great to be on here.
[00:39] Debbie Reynolds: Yeah.
[00:40] Well, we met on LinkedIn and I was thrilled because I was reading a comment, I was reading a post from someone, he made a comment, I was like, yes, yes, I gotta talk to this person.
[00:50] Yes, he has a hit the nail on the head, Right?
[00:54] So you are a digital identity expert board member.
[00:58] You're just a great, intelligent person. And so I love when I see someone's comment and it kind of is like a bolt of lightning, a bolt of truth has kind of come through the Internet.
[01:08] And so I would love for you to tell your background story how you came to be to your work as Signal and why Identity is important.
[01:19] Ian Glazer: Yeah. So thanks again for having me. I have been in the identity business for some mumble, mumble, mumble, number of years, more than I want to say out loud. But I started as a sales engineer in Identity in a product company,
[01:36] user provisioning, like how do people get user accounts? And I realized I really loved the subject matter and through that grew into other kinds of roles, other kinds of organizations,
[01:47] and along the way became an analyst. And so I joined a company called Burton Group, which was the preeminent identity and security analyst firm. I helped create actually the privacy coverage area there as part of Identity.
[02:00] Living in dc, you really cannot swing a yo yo without hitting a lawyer, more specifically a privacy lawyer.
[02:07] And it's something that absolutely fascinated me and I saw quickly the relationship between privacy and identity cast forward. I spent almost a decade at Salesforce running Identity product management there.
[02:18] Along that journey, I helped create ID Pro, which is the professional association for digital identity management in a lot of ways copied off of the iapp.
[02:27] I've done a bunch of other things along the way and now I am VP of Product Strategy. So I own a bunch of different kind of functions here at Signal.
[02:35] And just for the home audience, Signal SGNL, AI, not Signal, the messaging system that's got the DoD and all this kind of trouble. So just so we can differentiate those two out of the gate.
[02:44] But it's been an awesome sort of journey and to continue on. And both help practitioners learn more about identity, learn about our adjacencies with identity, with security and with privacy,
[02:55] as well as helping customers around the world. So thanks again for having me.
[02:59] Debbie Reynolds: Yeah, well, it's fantastic.
[03:01] This is a topic that I love to talk about. I actually have a cauldron of buddies in identity all over the world, so I'm happy to chit chat with them about all the interesting things that are happening.
[03:13] I want your thoughts about this.
[03:15] So I feel like identity is shifting or has shifted a lot over the last 30 years. And so one thought in my mind, the way people thought about it is like, okay, these are people who give me my usernames and passwords, right,
[03:32] as opposed to now. It's like identity is going to be so central to the way we are dealing with digital spaces now and going forward where it's not just,
[03:45] I guess, the anonymity of the web is kind of going away. I'm not sure,
[03:50] I'm not sure the best way to phrase it, but it's going to be so central to the future of the way that we deal in digital spaces. But I want your thoughts.
[03:59] Ian Glazer: I think one of the reasons why I like the space is hiding inside of your question, right? Because issues about how one identifies oneself,
[04:08] how the state body identifies oneself, how we do that in physical spaces, how we do that in virtual spaces.
[04:17] To me, that all of that is super fascinating and to the point. I gave a talk a couple years ago and I pointed out that the most important phrase that describes the power of identity is Moby Daq is the, the first sentence, call me Ishmael.
[04:35] And it's not the name that's important,
[04:37] it's the call me part. The voice,
[04:40] the character is telling you, the reader, this is how I want you to identify me.
[04:46] And that's always stuck with me because it's so important in sort of every aspect of what we do. And so digital is absolutely no exception.
[04:58] And it's hopefully a place where we can do temporary, maybe better in the sense that we have,
[05:06] I would say, very manually managed different kinds of Personas in the way we interact with different social services or, sorry, different services along the Internet, right? So I have my LinkedIn Persona and that's sort of my professional Persona, although some people seem to bleed into personal stuff, which always confuses the heck outta me.
[05:23] But then I have MySpace, right, where it's the personal Persona and that I may have very, very, very different sets of Persona who to differing degrees, I want to keep separated from one another,
[05:36] that I manage credentials and the way I interact with those services differently because of the Personas I am presenting, how I want to be named, if you will, in those services.
[05:47] And so to me, there's some unbelievably interesting and challenging problems that come along with it.
[05:54] And if we start to see, like what's going on in Europe,
[05:59] for example, with the Eidas program version 2 and the EU digital wallet, the idea that your citizenship can be represented in a form of a credential,
[06:10] that there'll be some mechanism to securely manage that and to present that. So I can do things like we talked about just before we started, age verification or nationality or citizenship status.
[06:22] There's some really interesting opportunities that are now afforded to us.
[06:27] They come with challenges, they come with privacy risks, they come with security risks. But it's an interesting moment to actually start talking more and more about identity.
[06:35] Debbie Reynolds: I agree.
[06:36] Well, I want your thoughts about the privacy part of identity. So I think it's just going to become a lot more complex because some of the ways that different jurisdictions are trying to solve some of these problems around identity is actually to ask for more information.
[06:56] Ian Glazer: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well,
[06:58] let's break that into two parts because sort of one part is in typically enterprise settings. I always think about identity as the third leg of the stool between security,
[07:08] privacy and identity. We three peers really serve a powerful purpose inside of enterprise.
[07:16] And the relationship between privacy and identity is that identity is actually the way that privacy can express the controls about access to data,
[07:26] whether that's human resources data or customer data or what have you. But this is how a privacy team gets to express controls and identity can actually operationalize those for them.
[07:36] So there's a natural affinity between the two.
[07:39] And then as we start to expand from say, purely inside the walls of the enterprise, to our trading partners, to our citizens, our customers, our students.
[07:50] Now identity practitioners are really the custodian of identity information provided by those individuals.
[08:00] So whether it is.
[08:02] And so now privacy practitioners sitting alongside of identity practitioners, saying this kind of information we need to protect in these kinds of ways because it represents something else. It's not just a street address.
[08:15] And I think that's one of the,
[08:17] the most interesting things about being sort of a privacy aware identity practitioner is the moments where you look at a piece of data that the business, let's say, has asked you to collect and say,
[08:30] what else is this? What else could this represent?
[08:34] And how do we want to manage it? How do we need to protect it? That is rooted in dignity for the data subject. Right. What's the best way to treat this information both from their perspective and from the business or the organization's perspective.
[08:49] So I think there's some really interesting opportunities there. But the other question is the.
[08:54] You sort of hinted at it is increasingly there is a tendency where people are saying hey, cool now because we can do this.
[09:03] Show me a government issued document and take a selfie in order to use my service.
[09:09] And in fact maybe that's the way you recover your password.
[09:12] That's interesting. Or maybe that's the way that you always identify yourself to the service.
[09:16] That's not so interesting or that's thorny, let's say.
[09:20] This is something that my good friend and colleague Andy Hindle talks about as verification or proofing creep.
[09:27] Essentially we're using the combination of document presentation and sort of liveness presentation, a biometric, facial biometric typically as the key, the credential to accessing services.
[09:41] And there's a lot of privacy implications in that, let alone sort of customer experience and journey implications too.
[09:51] Debbie Reynolds: I agree with that wholeheartedly. So I want your thoughts about this. What is happening in the world right now that's concerning you most in the identity sphere.
[10:02] Ian Glazer: Oh God. Thank you for clarifying because there's a whole lot going on.
[10:07] So concern I think that I have been,
[10:14] I was involved long ago with the precursor to what is the European Eidas program. So stork and then V1 of the program, neither really succeeded.
[10:25] As we look at V2 and the desire to have wallets and third party wallets and interoperability and these things,
[10:34] I am still,
[10:36] I still question the motivations and the realities of how this can all happen.
[10:43] I think there's some pragmatic things that may get in the way of certain kinds of success.
[10:49] I think at the same time there is interesting opportunities to open up new business models, which is great and sort of new opportunities to deliver service. I think that's important in a social setting especially.
[11:02] I am also keenly aware that the experience around how an individual,
[11:11] the ceremony by which they identify themselves to somebody else in the real world or to a service in the digital world that matters greatly, that matters greatly in terms of whether they'll use it or not, whether they're comfortable to use it.
[11:25] And I really am interested to see how the pilot projects are looking at problems of usability and in that inclusivity to ensure that everyone can use these things or if they can't, what are the alternatives?
[11:41] And are the alternatives some lower standard of quality, of service, of care, or are they similar?
[11:48] So I think those are the things that are sort of top of mind for me if I look sort of globally from identity. I think the other one big topic I talked about this five some odd years ago is we are seeing a rise of nationalism in our nations in a lot of countries.
[12:06] Along with that is coming differing amounts of desire to Balkanize the world.
[12:13] And one of the things I talked about this is now six years ago,
[12:17] is an outcome where we do not have a singular Internet and that national boundaries are actually defined by identity systems and that we have broken apart this sort of interesting experiment that is the Internet and the thing that is the air gap between them is identity schemes.
[12:41] Right. In order to interact in mainland China digitally,
[12:45] it's effectively a requirement that you have a WeChat identity and that interoperability exists in places outside of that. But mileage varies.
[12:56] One can easily imagine a future where there's a couple of those,
[13:00] more than a couple of those.
[13:02] To me that feels like a diminishment of the social sphere. Something that as an identity practitioner I would question my peers who are helping to make that happen. Not that I know any right now, but that one could imagine these programs take on lives of their own with unintended causes consequences.
[13:22] Debbie Reynolds: I agree with that. And I think from company to company, they're all trying to figure out what's the next best way to be able to have more surety about the identity of someone and do it in a way that the journey, the customer journey isn't, doesn't turn the person off.
[13:42] But then I think of it from a consumer perspective where I, I can't remember the most recent stat, but last time I checked the Fido alliance hit, the average person has like over, I don't know, 50 to 90 different accounts.
[13:55] Ian Glazer: Somewhere in that neighborhood.
[13:56] Debbie Reynolds: So it's like, I mean you think about all these new identity verification schemes, all these accounts just putting a lot more work on consumers. So I guess I'm concerned about maybe the future will be like you're talking about maybe the Balkanization of the Internet, but I think it's going to,
[14:14] to create a situation where people are going to be more choosy about what they interact with on the Internet and maybe do like less of that. But I want your thoughts.
[14:25] Ian Glazer: Yeah. So in some regards there's a bit of, I don't know, a libertarian fever dream that says if we drown you in choice, then you have choice.
[14:34] And I'm not necessarily always supportive of that idea. Right but the idea is like, look, you'll have your choice of identity providers or identity wallets or identity schemes or any number of these things.
[14:47] That is interesting. Like, that is an interesting thought experiment to sort of walk through.
[14:53] I hope people are choosy. I hope people pause before they sign up for things. I think the reality is that if whatever is behind that velvet rope is so enticing, then we know people will sign up for things if it's easy to do.
[15:15] Now, one can imagine a future state where that signup process is, oh, present just a verified credential that you've been proved by a bank or what have you, and you can get access to this.
[15:26] And the question becomes,
[15:29] what information is being actually requested, retained and used? Right. It's nothing new in the sense of the ceremony may change, the way I identify myself may change.
[15:42] But the same kinds of questions ought to still be asked.
[15:45] What's being collected? For what purpose? How is it retained? How is it governed?
[15:49] How is it protected?
[15:51] That doesn't change.
[15:53] And so in a lot of ways, there's a lot of conversations about changing the front door of the building.
[15:59] How will people enter this building? Will they use a new kind of thing? Will they come down a water slide? Will they go through ornate brass doors?
[16:05] But the business process on the other side of that door is exactly the same as it was in 1972.
[16:11] And.
[16:12] And so in that regard, there's this sort of impedance mismatch between where we think about where we could take things in terms of experience and technology from the perspective of technology versus what's the business process married up to that?
[16:27] And is that something that is up to the same level of rigor and trust that the other parts are? And often the answer is no, we'll get there next, like, okay, I guess maybe someday.
[16:42] Debbie Reynolds: Yeah, I agree.
[16:43] I want to turn our attention to age verification.
[16:46] So this topic fascinates me quite a lot. And I want your thoughts. And so,
[16:53] I mean, I can go to all different directions here, but one thing I wanted your thoughts on, and this is in the US So let's say states that create these onerous age verification laws where they're saying, for example,
[17:08] they're like, okay, when you go into a bar in the physical world and you wanted to get into the bar and prove that you're 21, right. You show your ID, right?
[17:18] And so some, the way these laws are written, they're like, okay, well, let's try to translate this to the digital world where everyone who goes on a website is going to show their government id.
[17:28] Right. And it just doesn't work that way. And so we're seeing a lot of companies say we're just not going to do business in Louisiana because they're like, this is just too much.
[17:36] But I want your thoughts about that. There's definitely a mismatch match between what people feel is normal and regular in physical world stuff versus how things happen in digital world.
[17:51] Because also if you're flashing your ID to someone at a club or a bar, they're not retaining that information.
[17:58] Right. They're just glancing at it.
[17:59] Ian Glazer: Unless they're scanning the back and they're doing all the other. But anyway, let's, let's go with the happy.
[18:03] Debbie Reynolds: Yeah, yeah, let's. Yeah, happily they just look at it and then you walk on and they don't retain it. Right. But we know they need digital systems that stuff is being captured or stored, retained,
[18:15] hopefully not breached at some point. But I want your thoughts.
[18:19] Ian Glazer: Well, I think the first thought is that the privacy concerns of me in the physical space presenting my driver's license is there's a whole lot more information in there than just my birth date and I have to present the full physical card with all of that information.
[18:34] And so concern one stemming from just real world examples is just you are asking for a limited purpose,
[18:41] but the only mechanism that I can present back to meet that limited purpose is over sharing information that's not relevant to that purpose. And we sort of kid like, well, so long as they're not scanning it and retaining it and what have you.
[18:53] But the reality is that if we look online now, it's like, hey, we want to do age verification. Cool.
[18:59] What's the mechanisms for doing that? There's a myriad of them.
[19:03] What other information is being collected sort of along the side? What's the bycatch of doing age verification?
[19:10] And is that onerous? What is the mission around? What is the mission to protect that information or destroy that information or simply not collect that information. Like it opens up a bunch more questions.
[19:22] The opportunity here is that with things like limited disclosure that I could present a state issued identification card. It might be a virtual card, it may be a, a driver's license, but that the only thing I'm going to disclose from it is in fact my birthday and I can ensure that.
[19:41] I as the presenter can ensure that. And in theory the service who's asking for it could be like, I just want driver's license, I just want it just for the purpose of your birthday.
[19:52] That's all I Need to know better still,
[19:55] can we actually do some claims transformation? So it's supposed to show you my birthday. All I'm going to give you back is a verified is over 18 or is over 21.
[20:03] Because frankly, that's all you as the business needs to check the box from a regulatory perspective, the consistency of that implementation, the ease at which that can be implemented.
[20:14] Now those become real world questions about.
[20:17] Well, we don't have consistent schemes for identification just in this country. There's what, 7,000 organizations that can issue essentially source documents like. We have a whole challenge when it comes to identification here in the physical world,
[20:32] in the US Especially.
[20:34] What's a consistent, easy way we can do this and ensure that.
[20:39] I will hope our the best of intents written into these laws. I question that sometimes meets the pragmatic realism of being a small business on the Internet. And can you meet those easily?
[20:50] I think there's a real friction in there. There's a real tension there.
[20:54] Debbie Reynolds: I agree. What's your thoughts about the push to have kind of mobile driver's license? So this is a hot topic all over.
[21:03] Ian Glazer: It is, it is, it's.
[21:05] So I am of mixed minds here. And when I really got interested in privacy was when real ID was coming along.
[21:14] You know, here was the intersection of identity practitioners interests and national interests and privacy concerns and civil liberty concerns.
[21:27] And it was a, it was a fascinating time to be a practitioner.
[21:31] Now, I mean, we're still rolling along and not everybody still has a real ID in this country. Right. And we're like how many decades on from this?
[21:38] Debbie Reynolds: 20 years. Yeah, 20.
[21:39] Ian Glazer: Right. It's. Yeah, it's post 9 11. Yeah, about that time. Right.
[21:44] And you know, one of the things I remember from that time was really about freedom of travel. This is also the same time that TSA is getting formed. This is also the same time where you've got to show driver's licenses or other identification to get through security checkpoints.
[21:56] So like it was a time that a lot of change was happening when it came to identification in the real world.
[22:05] Now, flash forward mobile driver's license to me is really, really interesting one because I want to carry as few things with me as possible.
[22:15] Right. So I 100% get the convenience factor of it and back on that sort of ease of motion, if you will,
[22:26] the touchless TSA experience that like they're piloting in D.C. and some other cities, like I've gone through it,
[22:34] it's **** magical.
[22:36] But at the same time,
[22:38] right, there's a lot of faith I'm putting in, you're going to do a match and destroy the match after we make the biometric match that I am fortunate enough to have a name that doesn't coincide with other people that are on say, watch lists.
[22:51] A variety of other factors that makes that kind of service easy for me to use and relatively comfortable. That is not a universal truth. The concern I have about MDL in a pragmatic sense is what cost to service providers in the physical and digital world to actually utilize this in the right way,
[23:12] in the sense of like, I just want to be able to read age verification, for example, or can you rent a car?
[23:19] That's a concern. The other concern I have is so great, I don't have to carry my physical card with me.
[23:25] I get pulled over for a traffic infraction. There is absolutely zero way on this planet I'm going to hand over my phone.
[23:33] Right.
[23:35] And so the. Here, here's my mdl.
[23:38] I just need to go scan that in the car. No way. Right. So there's like a real pragmatic like presentation of credential in the. A digital credential in the physical space that then leads back to a very interesting civil liberties question and information over sharing question that I don't feel I've got a satisfactory answer on.
[24:00] So like, I'm really of mixed minds. Like, I'm stoked for it, but at the same time I'm like, I'm still gonna carry my plastic license when I drive. I guess I'll keep it in the car or something like, I don't know, you know?
[24:11] So I don't have a crisp answer on it, but I have a lot of questions.
[24:16] Debbie Reynolds: I hadn't thought about that. Yeah, you're right. I wouldn't give over my phone.
[24:19] Ian Glazer: I'll add one to things that you can think about afterwards. Like,
[24:23] yeah, that, like I just have my MDL on me. I'm in a physical situation.
[24:28] What's protocol? How does that change from state to state or county to county?
[24:31] Debbie Reynolds: Exactly.
[24:33] Ian Glazer: There's a lot of questions there.
[24:34] Debbie Reynolds: Oh yeah,
[24:35] right.
[24:36] Just like, just like we aren't comfortable with someone taking our credit card. You give them their credit card, they walk away and out of your sight. Right. So definitely wouldn't want to do that with your phone.
[24:47] Ian Glazer: Come on. We're under uncomfortable heading someone. Or at least you ought to be uncomfortable heading someone your phone to take a picture of you at Trevi Fountain.
[24:55] So not necessarily like I'm stoked to hand it to a law enforcement or someone purporting to be law enforcement who I can't identify and verify with my digital credential. And what now?
[25:07] Do what now? Really?
[25:10] Okay,
[25:11] talk me through that one.
[25:12] Debbie Reynolds: So how, if at any point do you think all the excitement around AI is going to, how is it impacting identity?
[25:26] Ian Glazer: So there's a lot and it's like changes minute by minute practically.
[25:31] But there's a general form of the.
[25:36] The opportunity or the challenge that I think is really interesting and where we're going to come at it from a different perspective. So the general opportunity is if we do have these AI powered agents that can act on my behalf,
[25:50] then in order to do that at the low end of the problem space,
[25:54] they're going to need probably some digital credentials and they're going to need probably some forms of payment and they can go off and do things.
[26:02] There's a whole set of questions about how they identify to the downstream service.
[26:06] I'm acting on behalf of Ian.
[26:08] This is my proof that I am acting on behalf of Ian and I can present form of payment and what have you.
[26:16] There is an interesting question around liability. Right? When the National Strategy for Trusted Identities in Cyberspace was formed in the Obama administration,
[26:25] one of the things that it sought to at least start to get conversation around was if I am using a more digital form of identity and identity information,
[26:36] what are liabilities if I present fraudulent information? Or what if someone receives some information given in good faith and used in an improper fashion?
[26:44] We have not answered those questions.
[26:47] So now it's the great. I have a agent, it can go get me a burrito,
[26:53] but it does something wonky. Like instead of getting me one burrito, it gets me 500 burritos using my form of payment. Like, is the credit card company going to make me good?
[27:02] Is the AI large language model going to make me good? Like, there's a whole set of questions that come along with this. But one of the reasons why I'm really fascinated about this problem has nothing to do with AI,
[27:13] which is a very real and universal problem in this day and age of when a loved one passes away. They have a variety of digital assets that you may be the executor of their estate.
[27:29] How do you go to their photo sharing system or their music sharing system and prove that you're acting as their executor so that you can get maybe a snapshot of those playlists that you remember so fondly, or pictures of the family.
[27:49] This is something that touches literally everyone and increasingly how we think about identifying ourselves as authority. Who people that possess authority to act on someone else,
[28:04] someone who may be deceased, someone who may be incapacitated, maybe someone who is not legally of age to represent themselves.
[28:10] Those problems have very similar shapes to the how does my burrito buying AI agents demonstrate that I gave it authority to do that?
[28:22] So over at the OpenID foundation there is a death in the digital estate community group. And it is a really interesting gathering of identity practitioners and others, lawyers too to talk about these problems and to chart where are existing solutions, such as they are.
[28:39] What are those challenges? Because there's some very low level identity protocol challenges and some very large level sort of liability framework questions and legal questions.
[28:50] But our hope,
[28:52] let me not speak for everyone, my hope is that there's a similar shaped solution to these problems of whether I am representing my deceased grandparents estate or there's an agent, an AI agent acting on my behalf to do something.
[29:12] And so I think this is a really fascinating time from an identity practitioner perspective when and AI becomes this sort of sexy shiny thing about this. But the reality is our mortality makes it the universal topic in some regards.
[29:27] And so to me this is,
[29:29] this is a great and interesting place to invest some time.
[29:33] Debbie Reynolds: That's so true.
[29:34] Since I have you here, this is a question I always ask people who are in identity. What are your thoughts about organizations using voice as an authentication factor?
[29:46] Ian Glazer: I think in the last couple of years the ability to generate deep fakes,
[29:51] especially voice things like eleven Labs has certainly put a hurt on that.
[29:58] It's been a while since I've looked at call center technologies, what they would call IVR identity voice recognition. Sorry.
[30:06] And I knew there were not the greatest technologies in the task. I think that one's probably got the final nail in its coffin.
[30:15] I'm willing to be surprised, but I certainly don't see voice biometric as outside of the movie Sneakers as something that's still, still live and kicking.
[30:23] Right. Wasn't it Robert Redford's character who had his voice? They like clipped him saying things into the sentence he needed to say the passphrase he needed to say. So like yeah, I think that one's probably gonna go by the wayside.
[30:35] Debbie Reynolds: I think so too.
[30:37] So Ian, if we were the World according to you and we did everything you said, what would be your wish for privacy or digital identity anywhere in the world? Whether that be regulation,
[30:47] technology or human behavior?
[30:50] Ian Glazer: The problem is my brain goes to more gummy bears and better socks. But neither of those things has anything to do with privacy and identity.
[30:56] I guess the one Thing I would really want, if I only get to pick one, is that we design our systems with an empathetic viewpoint first,
[31:11] that we recognize that the happy path of you sitting at a desk with a functioning computer that is only yours with a good Internet connection,
[31:25] I hope we recognize that that's not a global truth,
[31:28] that's not as widely available as sometimes we like to think when we say happy path. And so I'd really like to see that sort of empathetic design being practiced so that the experience has the affordances for the realities of the world and people optimize for the markets they're in.
[31:53] I understand that and that's fine. But I think we can do a lot better to actually do that even in the markets where we are not even talking about emerging countries and others, just simply where we are.
[32:07] And I think there's a glimmer of hope around that.
[32:12] I think the EU's projects around digital Wallet actually will help do some of this.
[32:18] But I think one of the things that I harbor, I hope this will happen, is we have a rapidly aging population which comes with it in many cases. Diminishment of eyesight,
[32:31] font size goes up,
[32:33] accuracy of touchscreens goes down.
[32:36] And I actually think that our aging population is going to force a lot of different kind of product design choices to accommodate what becomes a very large portion of our societies.
[32:47] There's some great benefits to that, right? Because if we can make a more usable experience and a more understandable experience,
[32:55] everybody benefits from that.
[32:57] And so to me, if we take that sort of empathetic design as the first step, I think there's some wonderful byproducts that come out of it that I think would be a net gain no matter what market you're in.
[33:09] So let's go with that one.
[33:11] Debbie Reynolds: That's a great one I definitely want to see. You know, I think we need to bring more people into the conversation as opposed to pushing people out. So thinking about,
[33:20] like you say, aging population, that's totally, that's spot on actually,
[33:25] in terms of thinking about ways to make identity more accessible and that journey easier for people.
[33:33] Ian Glazer: You shouldn't have to be an identity practitioner to understand this stuff. You shouldn't have to be a privacy practitioner to understand this stuff. Like that's a failure, right? That's an actual failure of our systems and the way we interact with individuals.
[33:44] And that's always been true, right. Whether it's a wall of bureaucracy from legalese and paper documents in the physical world to the sign up or sign in experience and everything in between.
[33:57] So this isn't a new concept. It's just one that's becoming, I think, more and more important as there's a bit of a normalization to an extent of the ways we interact with digital services.
[34:09] Right. There's, there's, you know, a couple of ways that happens in this day and age and it's reasonably shared within a certain market that gives us an opportunity to sort of do better holistically and, and I hope we take that opportunity.
[34:22] Debbie Reynolds: Well, I share your concerns and I'm really hopeful about the future and so I'm really happy that you were able to chat with me today. This is fantastic.
[34:30] Ian Glazer: Heck, yeah. Thanks for the opportunity.
[34:34] Debbie Reynolds: Well, hopefully we'll have a chance to collaborate in the future. I love that.
[34:38] Ian Glazer: I'm looking forward to it.
[34:40] Debbie Reynolds: All right, talk to you soon. Thank you.
[34:42] Ian Glazer: All right, be good.
